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Tiger vs Phoenix Udyr


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#1 Felichi

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 11:02 PM

So ive been thinking of starting to jungle udyr soo

should i run tiger or phoenix udyr?

can you guys tell me the con and pro of each jungling

Thanks
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#2 Ehkx

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 11:17 PM

**FROM MY EXPERIENCE**


Phoenix Pros:

Phoenix allows for much faster jungle times due to the AOE damage you pump out.
Phoenix usually allows a safer route to be taken (starting @ stone bros)
Team fights you naturally pick up more assist gold through your Pheonix AoE.

Phoenix Cons:

Less burst on your ganks.

Tiger Pros:
Insane single target damage.
Allows for faster turret pushing with tiger's passive after ganks.
Ganks *CAN* go better assumeing you know how to position yourself after your bearstun.

Tiger Negatives:
Slightly slower jungle.
Need's blue ASAP.

Like I said, this is from my Udyr experiance, i personally love Phoenix, honestly you're a fucking phoenix.
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#3 luckluck

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 05:26 PM

I go tiger jungling because of better ganks, but i heard that pheonix is better in almost every other way.
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#4 BmpBlast

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 06:09 PM

When jungling Udyr I usually go Phoenix, but never level it up past rank 3 and try to have at least one point in tiger before I gank. This depends on how early I am ganking though, if it's like a level 2 or three gank then I'm probably not going to have it because you really need at least one point in bear stance before you gank. I'm not pro by any means though, just my two cents.

EDIT: Keep in mind the Phoenix has a nice AD steroid to it.
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#5 Darm

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 08:01 PM

Can we spell fenix ?

It's better - Faster jungle times allow you to gank sooner. a Udyr gank is dependant on your lane teammate actually helping kill them. Whether you are tiger or phoenix doesn't matter as much.

Also : Phoenix can start at blue with ease in my exp. [ with a leash of course ] and if the leasher can wait like 3 or 4 seconds you can clear wolves before blue even spawns.
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#6 AXPickle

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 08:25 PM

Phoenix is much faster in the jungle and at low levels does pretty much the same damage as tiger, so I would even argue that early gank phoenix is just as good as tiger. I would stop at 3 levels though and then get tiger. By mid game tiger is stronger and helps with towers.

So what I like to do for leveling is

Phoenix. Turtle. Phoenix or Bear depending on available ganks. The other of the two choices you had for level 3. and Phoenix for level5. Then I fully level tiger and turtle, maybe another level of bear in there depending on how the game is going.
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#7 Thergood

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 10:07 PM

Phoenix is and always has been superior to Tiger in practically all respects. There's a case to be made for lane Udyr to use Tiger because of pushing the lane from Phoenix, etc. I still think Phoenix is superior even for laning. The AD steroid, active, and passive from Phoenix means the burst is actually pretty significant. After three hits it is certainly higher burst then Tiger.

I max Phoenix, Turtle, and Bear. Run AS reds, flat AR yellows, MR/level blues, and MS quints. 1 point in improved smite, Go down support to get 3 points in movement speed, and the rest in defense to get swiftness.

Start cloth+pots. Kill the wolves with two phoenix activations (you'll have them down at almost exactly 1:55) and have someone pull blue. Smite blue and kill the wraiths. Then do red without smite using phoenix and turtle (Don't worry, you can do it pretty easily.) Take down the double golems using smite (it will be back up by now.)

I might be wrong about this, but I'm pretty certain it's the fastest level 4/double buff in the game. Skill RWRE. At 5 you can get another R or another W depending on what you need. Go back get boots and pots and gank with your super fast double buffed Udyr. If you're lanes are competent at all you will be dominating the game from this point on.

Build mercs unless they're all physical with no way to kite then get Tabi. After mercs build Wit's end. After that it's basically whatever tank items you need and you can throw a triforce in there for good measure.
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#8 LeeDark

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 05:08 AM

I go Tiger. I find the Phoenix sounds to be super annoying.
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#9 deyor

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 07:32 AM

Phoenix spends a lot less time in the jungle than Tiger. Less time spent in jungle = more time spent in ganking/counter jungling/whatever. And yeah, Phoenix does crazy damage as well.
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#10 Endrance

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 02:15 PM

Wits End Phoenix Jungle Udyr

Do this. You'll be surprised. Don't be irritated by the downvotes. At least four of those are from The Rain Man fans when I invaded his guide's comments (got alot of hate messages in that time). He listened to me in the end and modified his guide by switching from Arpen to Physical Damage Marks.
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#11 CupcakeMolester

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 02:18 PM

Wits End Phoenix Jungle Udyr

Do this. You'll be surprised.


I don't see how phoenix should work better than tiger with Wit's end as tiger stance gives AS.

Also IMO tiger stance is the strongest.

Red buff Udyr comming with tiger stance 2 shots you.
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#12 Endrance

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 02:20 PM

What do you mean? Tiger with Wits End instead of Wriggle's?

That'd be an even slower jungle than Tiger already is. Phoenix clears the jungle faster than Tiger by default and is superior in every situation but damage on a single target. And even there it's more even than huge difference.

Red Buff + Tiger does not two shot anyone.

Tiger jungle can't go without Wriggle's.
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#13 CupcakeMolester

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 02:24 PM

What do you mean? Tiger with Wits End instead of Wriggle's?


No, I mean wouldn't it be better to max Tiger when you get Wit's end as tiger stance gives passive attack speed, so you'd get faster wit's end procs.

Also I just notice why no wriggles? That doesn't make much sense to me either. Getting a wriggle's would make jungling way faster + give a free ward.
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#14 Endrance

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 02:28 PM

No, I mean wouldn't it be better to max Tiger when you get Wit's end as tiger stance gives passive attack speed, so you'd get faster wit's end procs.

No, because you'd jungle like a snail. Phoenix does synergize way better with Attack Speed than Wits End alone does, because Wits End only deals single target damage.

You also rather want Attack Damage than Attack Speed if you go Tiger Stance.
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#15 CupcakeMolester

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 02:35 PM

No, because you'd jungle like a snail. Phoenix does synergize way better with Attack Speed than Wits End alone does, because Wits End only deals single target damage.

You also rather want Attack Damage than Attack Speed if you go Tiger Stance.


Alright.

But I could see this work well wriggles + wit's end with Tiger Stance maxed first.
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#16 Endrance

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 02:43 PM

It does work, just not as good as Wits End does with Phoenix. Udyr also needs a big defensive Item to counter a certain part of his opponents very early, because he has no ranged options. And although both of those Items have defensive parts on them, Udyr needs way more defense than those have to offer.

I've actually played Wriggle's + Wits End Tiger jungle Udyr before against weaker opponents and it worked. But it's not as efficient if you're playing against evenly skilled enemies. Too squishy for a true melee champion, especially if you're constantly getting poked/kited, because then the Wits End MR passive wont activate.


Don't underestimate Phoenix. It's actually far superior in every aspect compared to Tiger, except the single target damage and usage - Phoenix needs 3 Auto Attacks, while Tiger only needs one - much easier to harass with that in a 1v1 top lane situation - and that only makes much of a difference if you're laning. If you're ganking, Tiger and Phoenix damage is pretty even. Tiger only does Damage once and Attack Speed doesn't mean much if you're chasing (AS only counts 100% all of the time if your enemy is standing still), where Phoenix does AoE Damage while running and slightly less single target damage (you also need to count in the AD and AP buffs you get from Phoenix).
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#17 crystal

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 04:21 PM

Phoenix is just so much faster in the jungle and allow for a lot of flexibility in the jungle and build. Udyr doesn't need wriggles to clear jungle, only attack speed and movement speed. It also allows Udyr to solo dragon quite quickly early on. I think only Fiddlesticks can do it faster in the game solo.
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#18 Endrance

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 05:16 PM

Fiddlesticks doesn't do it faster than Udyr, only slightly safer. Lee Sin does it the fastest while being reasonably healthy.

I wouldn't recommend early solo Dragons on anyone though, unless you have pressure on bot and mid, while top doesn't have Teleport and you know where the opposing jungler is as in, far away from Dragon and you're pretty sure they don't have it warded. If that isn't the case, an early solo Dragon is very very risky.
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