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"New" Kat


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#1 PandaPanda

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Posted 13 May 2010 - 09:28 PM

So how are people playing her now? I've seen her used effectively pretty often lately. Is Hybrid viable/necessary without decent teammates, so that you can get use out of the Rylai's During your ulti?

I was thinking Merc Treads, Haunting Guise, Rylai's, and 3 BF swords (into BTs?)

Realistically you're not gonna reach that point in most games you play, but the Guise and Rylai's seem pretty effective as far as health, and the BFs eventually add damage.
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#2 Devolution

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Posted 13 May 2010 - 09:39 PM

You don't need AD either, you could get the guise, rylais, then just more AP for shunpo and your ult.
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#3 Phifer

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Posted 13 May 2010 - 10:00 PM

You don't need AD either, you could get the guise, rylais, then just more AP for shunpo and your ult.


This is what I've been doing. Start with Doran's shield, Guise, Boots (Depending on enemy team), Rylai's, Zhonya's.

Don't mix AD/AP its just wasting stats since your ult does one or the other. (AP Build = Better Shunpo, Ult, More HP, Snare on specials. AD Build = Better Autoattacks (Never use), Better Bouncing Blade (Which means better lane pushing)

EDIT: Rylais is really good since you can Shunpo into an ult in 1v1 and snare someone in the ult without having to burn your exhaust.
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#4 Guest_Stope_*

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 12:07 AM

Start = 3 options:
1)Boots + 3 health pots
2)Doran shield + 1 healthpot
3)Red pot + 5 health pots

Mandatory = Magic pen runes, Sorc boots, Guise. For blues go MR or CDR for yellow go dodge, armor, hp/lvl, or ac

Then you can do AD or AP.

If you go AP, you get rylais first.

I think AD is much better because to get to the point where your ult is based off your AP you need around 180 AP! To put it nicely, the only benefit to AP is the slow. Shunpo does more dmg obviously, but bouncing blade (which can hit multiple people) does less. You also don't lifesteal nearly as much as you do with AD -> bloodthirster which will keep you pushing lanes strong and healing yourself as you do it. Not to mention, you will nearly always be getting in an attack round or two each time you shunpo to someone, having more AD here will end up doing more extra damage from these attack rounds.

Yes, you can go AP, and you can be successful. But if your team doesn't need you to be an iffy ccer (from having rylai's), don't go AP.

The reason people go hybrid (or at least what I'm guessing you or other people may be confusing as a bad hybrid build) is they want the slow component from rylais, but know that they will still do more overall dmg going AD after getting it. This is NOT a bad build, and is actually much better than the terrible AP builds I see people recommending.
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#5 Guest_Stope_*

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 12:10 AM

AP Build = Better Ult, More HP


Wrong. Even if you get super farmed and you manage 400 AP, you're still doing less ult damage than two bloodthirsters (or 3 BF's) will.
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#6 DivineDivaSoraka

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 11:53 AM

Start = 3 options:
1)Boots + 3 health pots
2)Doran shield + 1 healthpot
3)Red pot + 5 health pots

Mandatory = Magic pen runes, Sorc boots, Guise. For blues go MR or CDR for yellow go dodge, armor, hp/lvl, or ac

Then you can do AD or AP.

If you go AP, you get rylais first.

I think AD is much better because to get to the point where your ult is based off your AP you need around 180 AP! To put it nicely, the only benefit to AP is the slow. Shunpo does more dmg obviously, but bouncing blade (which can hit multiple people) does less. You also don't lifesteal nearly as much as you do with AD -> bloodthirster which will keep you pushing lanes strong and healing yourself as you do it. Not to mention, you will nearly always be getting in an attack round or two each time you shunpo to someone, having more AD here will end up doing more extra damage from these attack rounds.

Yes, you can go AP, and you can be successful. But if your team doesn't need you to be an iffy ccer (from having rylai's), don't go AP.

The reason people go hybrid (or at least what I'm guessing you or other people may be confusing as a bad hybrid build) is they want the slow component from rylais, but know that they will still do more overall dmg going AD after getting it. This is NOT a bad build, and is actually much better than the terrible AP builds I see people recommending.


AD in the long run with her will win you games. It's just easier to build up and get the AD states early on. AP takes much longer. Reminds me of how teemo players either do AD or AP. Usually the AP is for his mushroom ultimate, which is always fun, but AD allows you to push down turrets with teammates rather than solely being an AP damage champion. You can do both damage and turret destruction with her AD build.

When people play Kat, they focus quite a lot on ganking early game which is great, but against a disable and silence heavy team, Kat needs to stick with her teammates. Most Kat players i've seen love to solo most of the game and end up losing their stacks on bloodthirsters or sword of the occult because they got to cocky.

So i'd say, AP is fun, but AD will make it more fun =).
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#7 Phifer

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 12:10 PM

Wrong. Even if you get super farmed and you manage 400 AP, you're still doing less ult damage than two bloodthirsters (or 3 BF's) will.


AP Kat has more HP than AD Kat. (Typically 700-880 more HP) AP Kat also has Zhonya's 2 second invul for when you get focused in a 5v5 while you wait for Shunpo CD to Shunpo out if you need to.

AD also requires you to charge 3 bloodthirsters every time you die making your death late game even more momentum for the other team.
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#8 Phifer

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 12:12 PM

AD in the long run with her will win you games.


I'm 7-2 with Kat with a Kill/Death ratio slightly over 6:1 as AP.

I'd say AP will win you games.
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#9 Cryxx

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 09:22 PM

AP - easier to build with varied incremental costs for components, gain more health but more reliant on your cd's and skills.
AD - Takes takes more time and patience but is harder to stop and you have a strong melee/creep presence

BB or Shunpo the way the dmg is balanced is it's the same. If you stack the dmg into AP Shunpo does more to a single target, if you go BB, those will equal out to do more but to more than one target.

I've gone against AP Kat's in games and destroyed them. After you Shunpo and BB and ult.. what do you do with AP.. run away until cd's are reset, with AD, you smack them around some healing and doing 200+ dmg a hit.

I recommend a new player to play AP. Then learn how to farm and use abilities and work towards AD.

AD you get a Doren's shield so you can stay in a lane and survive and get that BF. If you play aggressive and strong, you can have a BF by 7-8 min. 9-10 if your slow. I've had 2 BF's by 10 min in some games just from good farming solo, with a few kills.

I run 9/21/0 with Kat, I just like having 733 health starting with Doren's shield for earlier laning. It means someone is going to die, but not me.
Get haunting guise for the pen if they stack MR. Late game I'll drop it if it's long and I need a 4th BT

Reasoning for AD:

Get 2 bf swords before 1 BT, I do usually get a vamp scepter to get heal one creeps, or a Sword of the occult and get some stacks going with 1 bf sword. 2 bf swords is 3700 Gold.

2 bf swords is usually when your AD hits about 200+ish with the passive at max. Which is 110 dmg to your ult. To get that with AP you need like 360 AP. Which is like 3+ items if you have good mejai's stacks. Zhonya's is 3200(? unsure exactly) Rylia's is 2800. Those two = 250 AP + (Guise + 20)=270 which means if you have Mejai's you need 9 stacks, or 12 stacks no guise.

So with boots and those items your looking at 8k-9k gold.

The problem with the 'invuln' on kat is it stops channeling.. Meaning you cannot use it during your ult. So if your stunned and silenced.. it's already escape time.. Waiting 2 more seconds means that they are just getting their cd's down also.

Now attack dmg increases with each level so with just the two BF swords at 18, you will be as powerful in your ult as if you had the AP. Once you get life steal when your done ult'ing make sure your smacking people with your 200-300 dmg melee attacks. Once you get BT's you heal, and then you use those cd's when they are up. And it costed less gold than the AP route and your dmg is higher.

If I need survivability early I may get spirit visage knowing it's going to delay me some.. but I usually sell it to finish my 2nd or third BT.

I actually prefer a jungler where as I take a side lane verse 2 opponents, they will push to my towers where I can easily farm/harass with BB, get my ult before they build in power and take one down, then it's a matter of going for the other one. Especially if the jungler comes in to assist.

I actually don't like mid. I will do it but it seems so boring. I like more action. Usually the opponent annoys me enough to interrupt my farming and it's only 1 person to kill. 2 people tend to be overconfident and it makes for a more exciting laning phase, and I tend to get more gold.

Learning dmg on abilities. cd timing, etc. Speak to your team.. let them know that after you tower dive in to kill someone you want them to stand in or at tower range so you can shunpo back out and take like nil dmg in the kill.

Oh and your ult is a great brush detector. When it lights up, Hit that sucker. Often it shocks them and then they run out after you. If your smart you hit W before going near brush. so it's waiting for your next attack on Q or E. If they are low on health, E for the kill, Q if needed. If there is more than one and it's time to bugger out. Move away from brush, shunpo to them for the 35% reduced. dmg.. run thru the brush and keep going. Done fast enough and they can't target you cuz. 99% of all people charge on 1vs2+, so they completed their run out of the brush and you went back through it or maybe killed someone. If you devastated or killed one of them just finish off the other as kills = cd resets, use them.
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#10 Cryxx

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 09:53 PM

AP Kat has more HP than AD Kat. (Typically 700-880 more HP) AP Kat also has Zhonya's 2 second invul for when you get focused in a 5v5 while you wait for Shunpo CD to Shunpo out if you need to.

AD also requires you to charge 3 bloodthirsters every time you die making your death late game even more momentum for the other team.


Your logic is flawed it applies the same way to AP:

If your AP the problem is limited items where they don't have mana or mana regen so your wasting stats. Also what happens when your die from Mejai's.. your ult dmg drops and so does shunpo and the 25% from zhonya's. So it's a wash.

2 bt's at 18 empty is still like 280+ dmg. That is 518 AP = 180 (Mejai's full stacked) + 20 (guise) + 80 (rylai's) + 125 (Zhonya's) + 101.25 (bonus from zhonya's) = 506.25 AP (4 items) add in boots. There are not many AP related items to buy left. Blasting wand into Lichbane? Which would max your AP at 606.25 = 181 dmg to your ult. The same amount of AD is 330, but only takes 230 from items. 3 Bt's empty is 180. So kill 13 creeps running to their base or a melee a few jungle creeps to death.

Rather than a 3rd BT, you get Guardian's Angel if your not surviving, or for kicks against melee get sunfire cape, For some reason it scares folks even with 40dmg/s. Or since you have like 30% lifesteal.. smack weak suckers for dmg and heal up...

AP relies on snowball items and needs stacking just as much. I guess you could stack Rylai's but that seems to be a waste..
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#11 Phifer

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Posted 15 May 2010 - 02:21 AM

Your logic is flawed it applies the same way to AP:

If your AP the problem is limited items where they don't have mana or mana regen so your wasting stats. Also what happens when your die from Mejai's.. your ult dmg drops and so does shunpo and the 25% from zhonya's. So it's a wash.

2 bt's at 18 empty is still like 280+ dmg. That is 518 AP = 180 (Mejai's full stacked) + 20 (guise) + 80 (rylai's) + 125 (Zhonya's) + 101.25 (bonus from zhonya's) = 506.25 AP (4 items) add in boots. There are not many AP related items to buy left. Blasting wand into Lichbane? Which would max your AP at 606.25 = 181 dmg to your ult. The same amount of AD is 330, but only takes 230 from items. 3 Bt's empty is 180. So kill 13 creeps running to their base or a melee a few jungle creeps to death.

Rather than a 3rd BT, you get Guardian's Angel if your not surviving, or for kicks against melee get sunfire cape, For some reason it scares folks even with 40dmg/s. Or since you have like 30% lifesteal.. smack weak suckers for dmg and heal up...

AP relies on snowball items and needs stacking just as much. I guess you could stack Rylai's but that seems to be a waste..


I don't go Mejai's and quite frankly I've never had a problem as AP where I ran out of items. (You do only have 5 slots for non-boot items anyway) I go AP mainly for the perks not the damage. (More HP, free snare, Zhonya's ability, etc) You also forget that AP builds get ~40 spell pen more than AD builds which is a very large difference in damage on your abilities.
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#12 TWIRLYWENCH

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Posted 25 May 2010 - 07:07 PM

So how are people playing her now? I've seen her used effectively pretty often lately. Is Hybrid viable/necessary without decent teammates, so that you can get use out of the Rylai's During your ulti?

I was thinking Merc Treads, Haunting Guise, Rylai's, and 3 BF swords (into BTs?)

Realistically you're not gonna reach that point in most games you play, but the Guise and Rylai's seem pretty effective as far as health, and the BFs eventually add damage.


I play with this exact build regularly and im very successfull with it. The DPS Ratio outweighs AP for your ult. haunting guise and rylais makes a significant enough difference for your shunpo. Early game i would recommend your treads and haunting guise as quick as possible and pop a brilliance elixer. make sure your skills are into shunpo as much as possible as well. my next 2 items are bf sword and then giants belt, games rarely go further than this and the DPS increase is much higher stacked with your base DPS than the AP you would receive from rylais and haunting guise. On top of the higher number of DPS to AP, your ult scales 20% higher with DPS. Final build for me is situational - Merc tread, Haunting guise, blood thirst, rylais, then either 2 more blood thirst or in a game where we do not have a tank ill grab an atmas and a warmogs, which keeps my dps above 300 still and makes me strong enough to survive nearly any team battle.
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#13 mallerd

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Posted 30 May 2010 - 09:39 PM

just build kat this way: warmogs, boots mobility, occult, bloedthirster x 3
much survivebility and much damage and much health , after getting 20x stacks i sell mobility and buy sorcer boots.
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#14 Dawc

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 04:12 AM

I got bored half way through and stopped reading. anyways my 2 cents about the HYBRID question, it depends on your skill level.

New to kat? Go ap, more forgiveness when you make a mistake i.e. slows, health, zonya invul.

I've played a Kat who went ap, but her first main item was a bloodthirster. This was so that she could wittle down her targets with BB's b4 her main dmg with shunpo/ult.

Worked well, but this is with a FULLY charged bloodthirster. With that being the only AD bonus, it's wasted money if you don't keep it stacked.
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