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AP Jayce: the Better Singed


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#1 Lyricism

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 01:56 PM

First I'll introduce myself. I am somewhat new player (I wasnt lvl 30 when S1 ended) and quite low ELO (or super-low ELO, Im at 1k). But I feel like solomid forums, as opposed to official or gamefaqs or reddit forums, have a respect towards player regardless of skill or ELO so I might be corrected, but I wont be trolled and insulted :P

Jayce got 2 abilities, that deal magic damage. His E, which hits for insane 20% of targets HP and his W, which is lighting aura around him. That aura is only skill, which scales with AP out of 7 abilities Jayce posses. Still I think it's worth building around. Because Singed exists.

Let's look at the numbers between Singed and Jayce

0. PASSIVE

Singed wins there by hard. 25% of mana into HP is amazing. Singed will out-health Jayce any time.

I. GAS

- Jayce's W has 4 second duration, 6 second cooldown and 95+0.25 AP, costs 10 "mana-per-second"
- Singed's Q has no cd, "infinite" duration 70+0.3 AP, costs 13 mana-per-second

Cooldown part can be solved by CDR, if you want perma-W, since with 34% CDR, it has 4 sec cooldown.
After solving simple equation (95+0.25x=70+0.3x) I have found Singed needs >500 AP to get more damage from his Q and Jayce with same AP with W.
Trade-off might be that you will get 2 more ticks outside of gas with Singed (there should probably be done math about how big of an edge Singed gets thanks to this), but Jayce's W has much wider and better positioned aura of effect, where you will hit more enemies and a lot easier. And chasing is much less awkward with Jayce than with Singed, since you have your aura in front of you too.

II. FLING

- Jayce's E does 160+20% of enemy health damage, stuns for 1 second and knocks them in front of you, 40 mana, 10 cd
- Singed's E does 300+1.0 AP, fling over the head, 140 mana, 10 cd

Neither Jayce nor Singed get a lot of AP, so I doubt Fling outdamages Jayce's E. Especially with some MPen, 20% down from a tanky character is painful.
Its now all about if you prefer fling over the head or fling forward. Personally I was always terrible with Fling on Singed so I enjoy Jayce more. Especially with his Q.

III. AOE SLOW

- Singed got 75% slow on 14 sec cd, no damage, 110 mana, huge range
- Jayce got 50% slow on 8 sec cd, 200 damage, 60 mana

This is the tiebreaker for me. Having gap-closer/slow is just awesome, and gives yet another damage edge over Singed.

IV. ULTIMATE

- Singed gets 65 ap, mres, armor and movement for 5 seconds
- Jayce gets 35 mres and armor at all times while in Hammer mode

Singed is definitly stronger during those 5 seconds, but only by 65 ap, 30 mres and 30 armor. Movement speed is not a problem for Jayce, he gets 40 on every transform and additional 50% boost from Speed Gate, which is available much more often. Also shot in ranged mode reduces Armor and Mres (yay!) and first hit in Hammer mode does bonus magical damage (yay, 3rd magical damage source!)

V. FARMING

One last tiny point: Jayce can be long-range and farm from a distance, which gives him instantly edge in line. You can even start with a doran blade or two and then continue with AP build, similar to Kennen. Especially since W on early levels is not nearly as reliable as Singed's Q on early levels.


As attachement, I tried this in Dominion and it worked quite good (those 2 normal games are with AD build).

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#2 zepy18

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 02:13 PM

Anything works in Dominion, ap jayce would never really work all that well because of the fact that only one ability scales on ap. Get DFG ad litch and it's a lot like ap GP, really cheesy and not something you play if you care about winning.
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#3 tortillagirl

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 03:20 PM

The thing with singed is you can build maybe just a Rylai and go tanky. And do damage. I might try it though, Nidalee only has one skill that scales of ad and people play that :P
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#4 VN Minimax

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 04:33 PM

The thing with singed is you can build maybe just a Rylai and go tanky. And do damage. I might try it though, Nidalee only has one skill that scales of ad and people play that :P


Ad nid has an aspd steroid, an execute, a heal, and a gap closer... there is nothing more a melee pusher could want (heal/execute/gap closer = long duels..... heal/aspd/ranged attack = push like saltnpeppa

Singed's strength lies in his passive, which gives him an absurd amount of tankiness, rather than his damage... the ap jayce idea you had is probably not something i'd use in a yourney, but it does sound kind of fun.
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#5 Lyricism

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 05:36 PM

Hey, Im not saying you have to use it during next IPL (however awesome it might be :D), just something fun, different and surprisingly effective. One big advantage might be that I dont need to build mana, so I can go Sunfire Cape/Abyssal Scepter/Rylai right away. Especially rushed Sunfire Cape is preety awesome.
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#6 VN Minimax

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 05:57 PM

that actually is a pretty good advantage.
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#7 CynicalEffect

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 06:08 PM

Singed has an AoE slow, Jayce only has a single target (I think)
Singed's fling is much easier to position for.
You didn't take into account singed's tenacity on ult, or passive. Both of which cause him to excel at the job he does in ways Jayce cannot.

Also, to maintain any real damage you'd have to constantly stay in hammer form, meaning you lose out on your speed buff and ult midfight.
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#8 Lyricism

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 06:23 PM

Singed has an AoE slow, Jayce only has a single target (I think)


Nope, Jayce slow is AoE aswell

Singed's fling is much easier to position for.


Yeah as I said, fling didnt suit me, but it can suit experienced singed players, I didnt really write much about those skills for this reason

You didn't take into account singed's tenacity on ult, or passive. Both of which cause him to excel at the job he does in ways Jayce cannot.

I forgot about tenacity, true.
I mentioned passive right at the start of the guide. Singed still has some advantages on his own.

Also, to maintain any real damage you'd have to constantly stay in hammer form, meaning you lose out on your speed buff and ult midfight.

You don't, actually.
When you activate W, you can switch to ranged mode and W still stays on. It takes just a tiny bit of CDR to get ult down from 5 sec to 4, so you can always be ready to reactivate your W.
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#9 CynicalEffect

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 06:42 PM

Hmm.

I still don't think the slows are particularly comparable. Not sure on the range of the slow part of Jayce's attack, but fairly certain it is cosiderably smaller, less effective and most importantly IS affected by tenacity. Due to the style of Singed's slow, tenacity does nothing to it as it's constantly applied. Also, a well place Singed slow can completely shut off whole areas for 5 seconds during a fight.

the only advantage Jayce has is a gapcloser, which is admittedly very nice.



Fling is MUCH more optimal in most situations than a knockback.

Scenario A: You're chasing an enemy and want to knock them back into your team.
Singed throws his slow, and as soon as he gets within range, that person IS going into your team.
Jayce has to get within his gapcloser range, then walk around them and knock them back. That is not possible to do if they have ANY form of hard CC.

Scenario B: An enemy *insert bruiser here* is trying to walk past you to get your carry.
With Singed, you wait for them to walk past you before flinging and then slowing them.
Jayce, you have to knock them back before they get past you.

Why is singed better in this situation? Two reasons.
A: It gives you more time to react and position your fling where you want it. If the bruiser gets past you when you're Jayce, there's not much you can do.
B: With Singed, you're allowing your AD carry more time so safely attack the bruiser.


Okay, as for your other points I can't really argue. I dunno, may possibly be viable. I am a fan of the stronger laning phase at the very least.
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#10 coojw

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 12:22 PM

I did an AP jayce with pretty good results. We ultimately lost, however I did well throughout the game until late game. I should have built lichbane much sooner, and gotten a bit more cooldown.

I will provide the replay for those interested. It was a solo top lane vs akali, I quickly pushed her out of the lane. The tactic to use is ranged until you need to harass. Switch to melee: Q->W & chase them around lol.

http://www.leaguerep...s/match/626908/
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#11 Regory

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 06:35 PM

Lightning Field's cooldown is six seconds at max CDR. It has a base cooldown of 10 seconds that does not decrease with additional skill points.

i.e. No.
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#12 GrandmistressD

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 06:05 AM

AP Jayce

/laugh:
not so epic

Singed

/laugh:
"stop laughing at me you damn idiot! I'll chase you till the end of the world!"


and that, people, is why we play singed.
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#13 D1eoX

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 06:09 AM

AP Jayce

/laugh:
not so epic

Singed

/laugh:
"stop laughing at me you damn idiot! I'll chase you till the end of the world!"


and that, people, is why we play singed.


I lol'd more then I should because it is SO DAMN TRUE!
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#14 tapobu

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 03:51 PM

you have it all wrong. singed is a better jayce than jayce.
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#15 SouK Ahra

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 11:01 AM

Singed has one of the best slows in the game and you think Jayce's one is better...

you have it all wrong. singed is a better jayce than jayce.


This sums it all
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#16 dreamerpro

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 03:09 PM

Theres a big thing many people forget, if they look at all these ap cheese builds. I mean with dfg and lichbane u can play so many champs on ability power.
There are stronger ones ( ap tristana maybe ) and some that are really troll ( ap fiora, was fun though).

But all these champs have a few large disadvantages: Lategame/ teamfight

U can do well in lane and maybe snowball even. But just imagine a lategame tf. Ur squischy as fuck, but to do damage u have to jump in the middle of all. And this means in a normal game death. Mealy ap assasins like akali or diana have much more burst, faster chase and clean up potential, more dmg, and more deffensive.

And if the enemies build mr, well ur fucked anway.

Apart from that, ad jayce is such an strong pick, he is overall much better
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#17 thresholden

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:41 PM

- Singed gets 65 ap, mres, armor and movement for 5 seconds


It lasts for 25 seconds. That's why Singed works, he gets ridiculously tanky stats for free. Jayce's hammer stance doesn't compete.
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