Jump to content


Photo

Magic Pen vs Ability Power


  • Please log in to reply
25 replies to this topic

#1 theta

theta

    Elite Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 207 posts

Posted 25 August 2010 - 09:26 PM

Is there like a difference and which one is better to buy for runes?
  • 0

Posted Image
IGN: TheRealTheta


#2 iToggle

iToggle

    Uber Elite Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 609 posts

Posted 25 August 2010 - 09:38 PM

Always Magic Pen unless you are only using abilities to heal (lol) and healers shouldn't build AP anyway.

I cry inside when I see people using AP runes. 30 extra damage in 1 spell that has a high cooldown and better base damage is dumb.

Magic apen will almost always be better than AP unless its something dumb loke Nunu's ult or Maguc Resist Ignoring (Cho Noms).


In which case I would get Mana Regen Per Level, as it will let you farm better or more AP or harass more. AP runes are dumb.

All characters start with MR. It WILL reduce magic damage. The % reduced will be greater than the damage gained.
  • 0

#3 aerborne

aerborne

    Uber Elite Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 678 posts

Posted 25 August 2010 - 09:40 PM

they both have their limits, since there's no flat magic pen talents, and the runes are really low, they're not as good as armor pen but still pretty good, i go with magic pen reds, magic pen or flat AP (or flat health) quints, ap per level blues, and you'll have alot of level 1-6 dmg. Sorc boots and haunting guise as your first 2 items and you'll have 50-60 flat magic pen. the problem is magic res starts at 30 and doesn't scale, and armor does, i'm still hunting for a good balance between MPen and AP that gives me good level 1-6 dmg.
  • 0

#4 Kensei

Kensei

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 35 posts

Posted 25 August 2010 - 09:45 PM

magic pen only gets you so far..... items cover magic pen. you shouldnt be focusing tanks as a caster therefore 95% of the time the people you are targeting have little to no MR anyway so magic pen serves no purpose. Dont compare magic pen to armor pen because they are completely different Armor pen is necessary on DPS because your auto attacking and armor is generally put on by squishies for protection and if your someone like trist you wanna maximize your auto attacks dmg potential as thats basically all she does. Magic pen is good to have but you dont need a full page of it. Just marks is fine. AP per level glyphs and HP quints are more beneficial.
  • 0
Posted Image

#5 iToggle

iToggle

    Uber Elite Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 609 posts

Posted 25 August 2010 - 09:51 PM

20 Flat Pen | 15% off the start with mPen runes. 60 Total flat potential pen, 55% total % pen. Save or abilities and abysall scept, thats pretty much how it goes. The only champ that I know to have scaling MR is kassadin (lol). MOST champs start off with 30 MR, which reduces magic damage by 25%. Figure out how much pen you will have a then see if you can find a single caster with good enough ratios to abuse early game, while also having decent base damage.

Annie has garbage Ratios, but high base damage. Although AP Sion has two 1:1 ratios, he has to 1. Be level 2 to get both. and 2. In order for AP runes to be more effective, you have to be gaining more damage from the spells than you would be gaining from mPen, which I find highly unlikely. Also it's nice to
be able to delay sorc shoes longer vs non-mr stacking morons. But one of the biggest points is that the items you get AP from are nicely cost efficient, and have much more variety, not to mention give more potentially useful stats. If you want to get a haunting guise instead of another AP item because you are using AP runes, you will be losing an item slot for less efficiency.
  • 0

#6 Caddy

Caddy

    Member

  • Members
  • 4712 posts

Posted 25 August 2010 - 10:01 PM

Magic Pen for red, on casters, AP for Blue, and something else for yellow. If you want an AP book, go with magic Pen red, and all the rest AP. Usually if you are stacking pure magic damage books, go with the AP per level.
  • 0
Posted Image
Have a question? Check out my Request thread. Or perhaps you care to play with me?

"It's good to know your opponents' skills so you can think in their shoes, so you know what they're going to do" - ReginaId
"Caddy you are always TL;DR, stop using so much detail"
Decided to go back to my Retro Sig!

#7 iToggle

iToggle

    Uber Elite Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 609 posts

Posted 25 August 2010 - 10:07 PM

Magic Pen for red, on casters, AP for Blue, and something else for yellow. If you want an AP book, go with magic Pen red, and all the rest AP. Usually if you are stacking pure magic damage books, go with the AP per level.

Ap Runes are garbage.


Red+Blue MPEN, Possibly MPen Quints; Mana Regen/Lvl Seals.
  • 0

#8 aerborne

aerborne

    Uber Elite Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 678 posts

Posted 25 August 2010 - 10:13 PM

20 Flat Pen | 15% off the start with mPen runes. 60 Total flat potential pen, 55% total % pen. Save or abilities and abysall scept, thats pretty much how it goes. The only champ that I know to have scaling MR is kassadin (lol). MOST champs start off with 30 MR, which reduces magic damage by 25%. Figure out how much pen you will have a then see if you can find a single caster with good enough ratios to abuse early game, while also having decent base damage.

Annie has garbage Ratios, but high base damage. Although AP Sion has two 1:1 ratios, he has to 1. Be level 2 to get both. and 2. In order for AP runes to be more effective, you have to be gaining more damage from the spells than you would be gaining from mPen, which I find highly unlikely. Also it's nice to
be able to delay sorc shoes longer vs non-mr stacking morons. But one of the biggest points is that the items you get AP from are nicely cost efficient, and have much more variety, not to mention give more potentially useful stats. If you want to get a haunting guise instead of another AP item because you are using AP runes, you will be losing an item slot for less efficiency.

Akali and Garen and i believe olaf (would have to double check) all have scaling MR.

*edit* olaf and mordekaiser. I'm gonna call this the 52.5 club, kassadin's their newest member.
  • 0

#9 iToggle

iToggle

    Uber Elite Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 609 posts

Posted 25 August 2010 - 10:15 PM

Akali and Garen and i believe olaf (would have to double check) all have scaling MR.



I think garen does. I know Brolad has higher MR than usual, but I think its static.
  • 0

#10 Kensei

Kensei

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 35 posts

Posted 25 August 2010 - 10:17 PM

Ap Runes are garbage.


Red+Blue MPEN, Possibly MPen Quints; Mana Regen/Lvl Seals.


unf i agree with him not you. stacking MPen is stupid and your wasting your time doing it. But people will do what they want. Runes arnt game changing just preference.
  • 0
Posted Image

#11 iToggle

iToggle

    Uber Elite Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 609 posts

Posted 25 August 2010 - 10:22 PM

unf i agree with him not you. stacking MPen is stupid and your wasting your time doing it. But people will do what they want. Runes arnt game changing just preference.



Rofl... You have to be a fucking idiot.

You don't actually get more MPen than you need. But MPen is both more cost efficient and more efficient in general than AP.

Seriously kid, do the fucking math.
  • -1

#12 Kensei

Kensei

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 35 posts

Posted 25 August 2010 - 10:27 PM

Rofl... You have to be a fucking idiot.

You don't actually get more MPen than you need. But MPen is both more cost efficient and more efficient in general than AP.

Seriously kid, do the fucking math.


obviously You need to do the math because I already have this is why neither him or me stack magic pen theres no point its all preference Dont start trolling because people dont automatically agree with you unless you wanna play lets show off my maturity level and start a troll match?
  • 0
Posted Image

#13 Pie is gooD

Pie is gooD

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 53 posts

Posted 25 August 2010 - 10:47 PM

Hmm my caster setup is (2 pages) :
1. Dps caster:
MPen reds, mp5/level yellows, ap/level blues, flat ap quints (sometimes swapped out for flat hp quints, but i honestly see no real difference people should not be hitting you hence making the 97 hp obsolete 99% of the time).

2. "Healer":
which is all ap with ap/level blues :P.



But that's personal preference so no raging.
  • 0
Posted Image
Overkill is underrated.

#14 Caddy

Caddy

    Member

  • Members
  • 4712 posts

Posted 25 August 2010 - 10:54 PM

iToggle you really do need to chill out, you are way to defensive and getting mad at people for voicing their opinion like you are all knowing... I said if you want to run a AP book, this is the way, because he asked. And stacking Mpen is kinda silly stack, because you can easily get a ton of it in game. Along with AP. So again, it is a preference left to the user, which he was asking because he wanted to see what OTHER people prefer. I don't do AP books, nor will I ever, but I would prefer it like that if I ever did.
  • 0
Posted Image
Have a question? Check out my Request thread. Or perhaps you care to play with me?

"It's good to know your opponents' skills so you can think in their shoes, so you know what they're going to do" - ReginaId
"Caddy you are always TL;DR, stop using so much detail"
Decided to go back to my Retro Sig!

#15 aerborne

aerborne

    Uber Elite Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 678 posts

Posted 25 August 2010 - 11:04 PM

Rofl... You have to be a fucking idiot.

You don't actually get more MPen than you need. But MPen is both more cost efficient and more efficient in general than AP.

Seriously kid, do the fucking math.

here you go some math

http://leaguecraft.c...80252cc8f7fcb48


level 1 annie in that build has 12.15 Mpen on a 30Mres char +13.32 AP.

with 19MPen from runes and the 15% talent you only have 20.65 with the (MRes-19)+15%

17.85 vs 9.25 mres that's 15% reduction vs 8.47%


87.255.7 vs 82.377

at level 6 with 3 in disintigrate

154.75 vs 155.601

So i guess after doing the math the flat MPen quints and blues are only good up until you have sorc boots when both builds have 30MPen. I'd say AP is better, it doesn't go away.
  • 0

#16 Pie is gooD

Pie is gooD

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 53 posts

Posted 25 August 2010 - 11:09 PM

Forgot to add but i think in the official forums (dunno if eu/us are the same now) somewhere someone DID the math everyone (*cough* iToggle *cough*) speak so highly about. The result was stack ap like fudge then if they get like over 90~ (i think it was 90, absolutely not sure here) MR then just grab a void staff and keep stacking ap. So i don't see why going full out on mpen will help you other than very early in the game and as you said mr does not scale meaning if you just red (8.5) and sorc's boots all the 30 mr champs will be left with 2.5...I bet at that point more ap is better :P

Oh someone mentioned Haunting Guise.... that item is like malady... just bad. No reason to buy it. Ever.
  • 0
Posted Image
Overkill is underrated.

#17 Caddy

Caddy

    Member

  • Members
  • 4712 posts

Posted 25 August 2010 - 11:12 PM

Forgot to add but i think in the official forums (dunno if eu/us are the same now) somewhere someone DID the math everyone (*cough* iToggle *cough*) speak so highly about. The result was stack ap like fudge then if they get like over 90~ (i think it was 90, absolutely not sure here) MR then just grab a void staff and keep stacking ap. So i don't see why going full out on mpen will help you other than very early in the game and as you said mr does not scale meaning if you just red (8.5) and sorc's boots all the 30 mr champs will be left with 2.5...I bet at that point more ap is better :P

Oh someone mentioned Haunting Guise.... that item is like malady... just bad. No reason to buy it. Ever.


WHAT.. NOT.. It's better than malady.. For early midgame.. Promise xD Esp on Vlad xD. Malady is good on nobody. lol.
  • 0
Posted Image
Have a question? Check out my Request thread. Or perhaps you care to play with me?

"It's good to know your opponents' skills so you can think in their shoes, so you know what they're going to do" - ReginaId
"Caddy you are always TL;DR, stop using so much detail"
Decided to go back to my Retro Sig!

#18 theta

theta

    Elite Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 207 posts

Posted 25 August 2010 - 11:14 PM

Ap Runes are garbage.


Red+Blue MPEN, Possibly MPen Quints; Mana Regen/Lvl Seals.


I use that setup except I don't have MPen Quints yet.
  • 0

Posted Image
IGN: TheRealTheta


#19 aerborne

aerborne

    Uber Elite Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 678 posts

Posted 25 August 2010 - 11:27 PM

Forgot to add but i think in the official forums (dunno if eu/us are the same now) somewhere someone DID the math everyone (*cough* iToggle *cough*) speak so highly about. The result was stack ap like fudge then if they get like over 90~ (i think it was 90, absolutely not sure here) MR then just grab a void staff and keep stacking ap. So i don't see why going full out on mpen will help you other than very early in the game and as you said mr does not scale meaning if you just red (8.5) and sorc's boots all the 30 mr champs will be left with 2.5...I bet at that point more ap is better :P

The other thing is since they made Flat pen work like (1.0-%pen)(MRes-FlatPen) your flat pen is basically cut in half. So there's two problems with flat pen runes and items, one they scale backwards against higher Mres: 150Mres-50 flat pen = only 10% reduction in damage reduction percent (60 to 50) but if we add in the 55% penetration, they're going to have 65 Mres, vs if you had no flat pens they'd have 97.5 so the %based cuts that 50 Flat pen into 32.5 mpen. So it basically has TWO diminishing return mechanics acting on it if you get % penetration.


WHAT.. NOT.. It's better than malady.. For early midgame.. Promise xD Esp on Vlad xD. Malady is good on nobody. lol.

Haunting guise is good against the 52.5 club ;)
  • 0

#20 Caddy

Caddy

    Member

  • Members
  • 4712 posts

Posted 25 August 2010 - 11:36 PM

MAN FUCK THE 52.5 club. I stack Guise.
  • 0
Posted Image
Have a question? Check out my Request thread. Or perhaps you care to play with me?

"It's good to know your opponents' skills so you can think in their shoes, so you know what they're going to do" - ReginaId
"Caddy you are always TL;DR, stop using so much detail"
Decided to go back to my Retro Sig!