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Carry yourself out of bronze: why its hard


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#21 juke desu

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 03:13 PM

I think Wildturtle is proof that there is no elo hell. Just looked at his Wildturtl account, 47 wins and 8 losses plat 1. Alongside his 2 accounts in challenger.
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#22 Dominus Ensis

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 03:43 PM

I think Wildturtle is proof that there is no elo hell. Just looked at his Wildturtl account, 47 wins and 8 losses plat 1. Alongside his 2 accounts in challenger.


...no...

"Elo hell" is a stupid concept that makes no sense, but this isn't the reason. You're comparing a bronze V guy to a professional. Go back to kindergarten if that comparison makes sense to you.

Besides, this thread isn't about "elo hell."
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#23 juke desu

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 03:55 PM

...no...

"Elo hell" is a stupid concept that makes no sense, but this isn't the reason. You're comparing a bronze V guy to a professional. Go back to kindergarten if that comparison makes sense to you.

Besides, this thread isn't about "elo hell."


The thread isn't but there has been a lot of mention. And that's my point also maybe it wasn't clear but if you're a bronze v player and you're not rising then obviously the problem is you.
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#24 Dominus Ensis

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 04:10 PM

Ah okay. Sorry about that. I was under the impression you were of the "pros can do it so why can't you?" camp. My bad lol.
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#25 Korrvo

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 04:20 PM

If you are good you will get yourself out of "elo hell" with no issues. I leveled my current account from Bronze V to Diamond V in around a month with no issue whatsoever aside from the later part of Plat.

If you are having trouble getting out of bronze 5 of all places, you deserve to stay there, because bronze is beyond easy to carry.
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#26 Dominus Ensis

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 04:27 PM

If you are good you will get yourself out of "elo hell" with no issues. I leveled my current account from Bronze V to Diamond V in around a month with no issue whatsoever aside from the later part of Plat.

If you are having trouble getting out of bronze 5 of all places, you deserve to stay there, because bronze is beyond easy.


No offense, but I'd be willing to bet you wouldn't say that if you weren't so high ranked (gratz on diamond btw). The only real problem I have with your line of thinking is that easy is relative. It clearly isn't easy for him, and saying it is doesn't seem right.

Besides, phrasing it the way you did implies that even getting better won't get him out of bronze V.
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#27 Korrvo

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 04:40 PM

No offense, but I'd be willing to bet you wouldn't say that if you weren't so high ranked (gratz on diamond btw). The only real problem I have with your line of thinking is that easy is relative. It clearly isn't easy for him, and saying it is doesn't seem right.

Besides, phrasing it the way you did implies that even getting better won't get him out of bronze V.

Thanks. Hit diamond yesterday with 3 straight wins on Senjuani.

And nah not really, I'd probably still be saying it even if I was lower. Even on my old account where I couldn't get past 1800 in Season 2 I still believed it was pretty much my fault. I raged a lot and that ended up clogging my sense to where I just started doing stupid stuff because of how frustrated I was, but I knew I was frustrated and knew that was why I was losing, and yet for some stupid reason I never took a break until Riot gave me a permanent one. (lmao)

Gbay vids helped.



And what I meant to say was is that if he gets better, learns what carrys what at what rank, stops blaming his teammates and instead blaming himself, etc etc then he'll be able to move on, but until he does that he is in the right place.
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#28 ir0xyours0x

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 04:47 PM

Man, I am plat, and I have a negative KD. It's not about KD. I average 5.7/6.3/9. But I am often times the guy that goes in real deep to get other people on your team fed. WHen I do get fed, I sacrifice me dieing if it gets other people on my team money to help carry the game into a win. Which is what it's about, being a team player and getting everyone gold. No matter how fed you get, you can't 1v5, You can get pentas, but not 1v5. So remember that and help others get fed. Also use your advantage to get dragons (pretty much a diluted kill for everyone). Little things like that man.
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#29 Big Skler

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 05:12 PM

It's annoying people who aren't good say ranking isn't a judge of skill. The only way ranking doesn't matter is if you aren't playing enough games. If you've played (and tried to win in) 200+ games and are still at Bronze you are, with almost 100% certainty, not good.

5v5 ranking is reflective of how good your team is, which is what ultimately matters in a team game, but solo queue is a perfectly good indicator of individual skill given a decent number of games. Solo queue is for people who can't schedule their video game playing or don't feel like going through the effort of finding 4 other people we like with similar schedules that want to play some League. That doesn't make it worthless, it just means Solo queue is good for only one purpose: measuring individual skill in a team game. Sure individual skill isn't the most important thing in League, but solo queue definitely measures it if you want it to. Anyone who says otherwise is flat out wrong.

So yeah, solo queue is a pretty good indicator of individual skill given a large enough number of games (where you're trying to win) played.


Also, to contribute, you don't need to carry to win. I got through gold by picking Taric and Nautilus a lot and getting people who I thought were competent fed (though with Taric I mostly invaded every time for first blood), as well as leading the team. Ward to prevent mistakes, call everything out, and just play like your teammates are incapable of any thought except "kill enemies and listen to the team leader." If you're good you'll win 90% of the games you do this in.
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#30 Dominus Ensis

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 05:21 PM

It's annoying people who aren't good say ranking isn't a judge of skill. The only way ranking doesn't matter is if you aren't playing enough games. If you've played (and tried to win in) 200+ games and are still at Bronze you are, with almost 100% certainty, not good.

5v5 ranking is reflective of how good your team is, which is what ultimately matters in a team game, but solo queue is a perfectly good indicator of individual skill given a decent number of games. Solo queue is for people who can't schedule their video game playing or don't feel like going through the effort of finding 4 other people we like with similar schedules that want to play some League. That doesn't make it worthless, it just means Solo queue is good for only one purpose: measuring individual skill in a team game. Sure individual skill isn't the most important thing in League, but solo queue definitely measures it if you want it to. Anyone who says otherwise is flat out wrong.

So yeah, solo queue is a pretty good indicator of individual skill given a large enough number of games (where you're trying to win) played.


Also, to contribute, you don't need to carry to win. I got through gold by picking Taric and Nautilus a lot and getting people who I thought were competent fed (though with Taric I mostly invaded every time for first blood), as well as leading the team. Ward to prevent mistakes, call everything out, and just play like your teammates are incapable of any thought except "kill enemies and listen to the team leader." If you're good you'll win 90% of the games you do this in.

It's annoying when people like you post walls of pointless drivel that doesn't help or encourage anybody.

Oh and Corvo, good on you to clarify. There's always someone who'll take things the wrong way if their a bit ambiguous. And I meant if you were like silver you probably wouldn't be so harsh XD.
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#31 juke desu

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 06:10 PM

I agree with Corvo, after playing about 200+ or so games you should at least climb 2 leagues assuming that you are improving and not playing the same way you always have. I'm in Silver V atm and I don't claim to be stuck there really it's just that I don't play enough solo que to really climb quickly.
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#32 Foo18

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 07:11 PM

I agree with Corvo, after playing about 200+ or so games you should at least climb 2 leagues assuming that you are improving and not playing the same way you always have. I'm in Silver V atm and I don't claim to be stuck there really it's just that I don't play enough solo que to really climb quickly.


The only people that say "elo hell" is a permanent are people who belong there. However, bad luck can stick you a place you don't belong for frigging ages. I don't know why, but I have had almost no luck since I started playing ranked again. In about 20 games, I won 2 of them without having a 5 KDR, both on support (I know KDR doesn't mean everything, but there's no other way to accurately describe how you played). My other problem is that I was getting less points for winning than losing, and finally, I haven't played that much. Now that I've broken 30 or so games since elo decaying to silver 2, I did get a streak of decent luck, winning three out of four. One of the games I won after my client crashed three times in the loading screen, and I came to lane at 6 minutes lol. (I also have some trouble, because I play utility mages, and they aren't the best soloq carries.)

Basically, elo hell is just bad luck keeping you in a place you don't belong for longer than you "should." If you are a Diamond level player, you obviously aren't gonna struggle to much in bronze, and getting up to diamond won't be too much trouble if you have decent luck. Bad luck happens, but it isn't permanent.
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#33 K3nyy

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 08:19 PM

KDA is not the only thing that matters. There are people who go 5-0 or whatever in lane and then don't know how to play the mid/late game at all. They chase kills instead of taking objectives like towers and dragon/baron, etc. They don't cs. There are dumbasses who spam all their skills to get that one kill even if it was secured, and then subsequently lose the bigger fight. Then there are jerks out there that rather save their KDA record instead of actually fighting, which makes the teamfight 4vs5 instead of actually 5v5. Honestly when I'm 7-0 or something, I feel a little reluctant to fight too, which shouldn't be the case.

A lot of people throw, even if it's not that obvious. It's tempting to chase that 10% HP nidalee, but most of the time, you won't catch him and consequently miss out on a baron. When the enemy team respawns, they catch someone out of position and baron and push to win. Even though your team was up in towers and kills, you still lose.Then you blame the team. Sound familiar?

Honestly if you are truly not where you belong, you will carry your lane most of the time and push your advantage into the midgame. Instead of focusing on what your team is doing wrong, focus on what the enemy team is doing wrong and capitalize on it. There's too much decision making in a team game for you to always blame your teammates. No offense, but bronze people are so dumb that if you're a decent player, you can carry your team even with a feeder or two, unless there's probably a blatant troll out to make you lose.
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#34 Big Skler

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 08:46 PM

It's annoying when people like you post walls of pointless drivel that doesn't help or encourage anybody.


I must have skipped over the part of the T&C where you can only say encouraging things. Just because saying "solo queue is an accurate judge of skill given large enough numbers" bothers you doesn't mean I said anything wrong. Apparently some folks needed an explanation as to why it is a fairly accurate ranking system, so I figured I'd post an explanation and then offer some advice (play whoever and if you're good you'll climb anyways) for the TO. He said he was good and was being held back by his team, so I told him how to win (actually be good).

If anybody gets upset because of someone saying a vast swath of the community is not good at the game they should not compete in anything. People tend to be bad at things when they first start them because that's just how it works, and being told that you're bad at something shouldn't upset you in general, especially when it's said without malice. It's a game, being bad at it doesn't make you unimportant/stupid/a bad person in the same way that being really good at something doesn't make you important/smart/a good person.

Solo queue is a better judge of individual skill than ranked 5s and does exactly what it set out to do: judge individual skill at League of Legends and make people say mean things on the Internet. If a challenger player says solo queue doesn't measure individual skill they're just as wrong as a bronze player who thinks the same thing, it's just more annoying when the latter says it because they're it impedes their progress and makes them sound whiny. Also because I used to pretend that was the case with myself and it took somebody being mean on the Internet to realize how wrong I was.
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#35 Dominus Ensis

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 09:05 PM

Perhaps encouraging was the wrong word. I meant useful. All you've successfully done is call the TC bad. Your advice was basically "play the game correctly and you should win." Good job.

The whole "solo queue being a good measure of individual skill" thing was the useless drivel part. It measures individual skill to some degree and is the only current method of doing so, but that doesn't make it a good method. There are too many variables to make it truly accurate. Does it put you in the right general area? Maybe. Is it accurate? Not at all.
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#36 Slater Von Jäger

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 12:58 AM

The thread isn't but there has been a lot of mention. And that's my point also maybe it wasn't clear but if you're a bronze v player and you're not rising then obviously the problem is you.


The people mentioning elo hell, are people that are NOT the TC. The issue is, every single person, and that includes everyone here(and i don't give a crap how anyone takes this), that makes claims to elo hell being low elo, is a fucking retard. Elo hell is a mental concept created by HIGH RANKING PLAYERS to describe the fact that they became bored with the rating they were at, as gameplay became extremely stale for them, and it felt as if their ratings were neither going up, or going down. thus it felt like they were in a pit of boredom, or "elo hell". Anyone that uses the phrase elo hell for anything but it's original use, is wrong, and should feel likewise.


5v5 ranking is reflective of how good your team is, which is what ultimately matters in a team game, but solo queue is a perfectly good indicator of individual skill given a decent number of games. Solo queue is for people who can't schedule their video game playing or don't feel like going through the effort of finding 4 other people we like with similar schedules that want to play some League. That doesn't make it worthless, it just means Solo queue is good for only one purpose: measuring individual skill in a team game. Sure individual skill isn't the most important thing in League, but solo queue definitely measures it if you want it to. Anyone who says otherwise is flat out wrong.

So yeah, solo queue is a pretty good indicator of individual skill given a large enough number of games (where you're trying to win) played.


My god, this has to be one of the most incorrect statements ever. Please, do explain, in actual detail, with facts, to back up how solo queue is for people who cannot schedule the game playing time, and how a game, who's entire system is built solely on team based play, and how a ranking system that judges a player's solo progression on how a team of completely random players does?

Do you not see the issue with what you said. Solo queue, in it's old and current states, has NO REFLECTION ON INDIVIDUAL PLAY. If it did, then that would mean that EVERYONE at diamond tier, should be able to crush anyone of a lower tier, but that's not the case. I can promise you, that there are many people here, or just in the game, who aren't even close to diamond tier, and have proven themselves capable of out playing high ranking players, on multiple occasions. But as you said, it should have some reflection of your individual skill, so how could that ever be? The fact is, your solo queue rating, has nothing to do with your individual skill, your solo queue rating is a reflection of your ability to either A. get lucky and get a team with multiple or all outstanding players, or B. your, and your team's ability to adapt to one another in a short period of time, before the other team can, allowing you to secure victory through improvised on the fly team work.

Solo queue has no reflection on individual skill, as this is NOT an individual game, it is a team game, thus no matter if it's Solo, Duo, 3s or 5s, your rating is a reflection of teamwork skills. Solo queue SHOULD be a reflection of individual skill, it SHOULD feature a rating system that judges YOU, and not your team to determine your rating, but it doesn't. And that's the number one reason why you always heard people bitch about the elo system, and you hear them bitch about the league system now. Until Riot introduces a proper individual rating system into the game, NO ranking in this game will ever be a reflection of individual skill, no matter how many games you played, as no matter how many games you played, you cannot deny the fact that if it wasn't for the teams you had, you wouldn't be where your at in ranking.
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#37 Dominus Ensis

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 01:19 AM

Slater Von Madbro vs elo hell. Who will come out on top?

Round 2, FIGHT!
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#38 ir0xyours0x

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 01:21 AM

Man I understand you're a mod, But TBH, solo que does tell your individual skill. Some Gold players have mechanics of diamonds players, but have really really bad decision making. SO they don't advance, or they odn't lead there team like they should. However, I don't think there is any amount of proof or discussion, that could make you change your mind. So i'ma leave it at that. It's not all about mechanics, there are other aspects to the game. Team play greatly improves the higher you go up.
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#39 Dominus Ensis

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 01:33 AM

Yeah, but lets think about an example for a moment. Of my friends here, the best all around player I know is gold 3. The worst (of like 6) is currently plat 3. Lets look at some discrepancies:

Plat is better at his best 2 champions than gold is at his

Plat has worse decision making than gold

Plat is a better laner overall than gold

Plat is a much worse team fighter than gold

Plat wards less and in less effective places than gold

Plat has worse map awareness than gold

And yet plat is in plat and gold is in gold and do you know why?

Because plat mains mid, and gold mains top.

Because something like this can happen, who's to say it doesn't happen all over the solo queue ladder? It may not, but the potential is there, making the solo queue ranking system innately flawed.
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#40 Mai&Goku4Ever!

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 01:46 AM

wtf ppl write so much and i see no tld;dr,fuck this forums,i hate dominus cuz he aint drunk.
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