Jump to content


Photo

Solo lane


  • Please log in to reply
19 replies to this topic

#1 GANKKKK

GANKKKK

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 72 posts

Posted 15 February 2011 - 10:14 AM

Just a quick question: why is top always used as the solo lane? Only reason I can see is so that the jungler can get help doing dragon..
  • 0

#2 Blaarg

Blaarg

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 6 posts

Posted 15 February 2011 - 10:30 AM

Dragon control. If there is only one bottom vs 2 and the 2 bottom + a jungle go for dragon, most champions can't stop them from getting it.
  • 0

#3 MiMoDiE

MiMoDiE

    Devil

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 137 posts

Posted 15 February 2011 - 12:05 PM

Well it has been proven that the best and most efficient combo is to have a jungler so you can have 2 strong/farmed/outleveled solos. So yes giving top lane is mostly to get dragon control to your team, because having 2 allies bot allows the jungler to do dragon faster or more secured (with mid help if needed) or rather stops enemy team to do it.
  • 0

Posted Image


#4 Caddy

Caddy

    Member

  • Members
  • 4712 posts

Posted 15 February 2011 - 04:50 PM

Yes - dragon control so you have 4v4, instead of 3v4.
  • 0
Posted Image
Have a question? Check out my Request thread. Or perhaps you care to play with me?

"It's good to know your opponents' skills so you can think in their shoes, so you know what they're going to do" - ReginaId
"Caddy you are always TL;DR, stop using so much detail"
Decided to go back to my Retro Sig!

#5 Morbid Lynx

Morbid Lynx

    Elite Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 383 posts

Posted 17 February 2011 - 09:20 AM

Well it has been proven that the best and most efficient combo is to have a jungler so you can have 2 strong/farmed/outleveled solos. So yes giving top lane is mostly to get dragon control to your team, because having 2 allies bot allows the jungler to do dragon faster or more secured (with mid help if needed) or rather stops enemy team to do it.


I don't know if that holds true anymore though. If both teams have junglers, "yes", solo top will be nicely farmed and feeded, on both sides.
BUT, in the instance of only one of the teams having a jungler and the other team having a duo-lane combo with nice poke/harrass, the odds that the solo-top will be starved are very much great, and losing the tower withing the 12minute mark -check.
  • 0

#6 Goliath

Goliath

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 5 posts

Posted 17 February 2011 - 10:02 AM

I don't know if that holds true anymore though. If both teams have junglers, "yes", solo top will be nicely farmed and feeded, on both sides.
BUT, in the instance of only one of the teams having a jungler and the other team having a duo-lane combo with nice poke/harrass, the odds that the solo-top will be starved are very much great, and losing the tower withing the 12minute mark -check.


I think being able to kill creeps at your tower is an important skill, there's not many 2v1 duo's that can all out deny, and if you can get 5/6 or 6/6 creep kills per wave in range of your tower then you never need to extend far enough to where they can use their advantage against you. Any champion can farm at the tower if you time it correctly. Either way, a 1v2 getting denied would happen equally if they solo bot vs top, so there's nothing to gain by having bottom lane be solo.
  • 0

#7 Morbid Lynx

Morbid Lynx

    Elite Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 383 posts

Posted 17 February 2011 - 12:36 PM

I think being able to kill creeps at your tower is an important skill, there's not many 2v1 duo's that can all out deny, and if you can get 5/6 or 6/6 creep kills per wave in range of your tower then you never need to extend far enough to where they can use their advantage against you. Any champion can farm at the tower if you time it correctly. Either way, a 1v2 getting denied would happen equally if they solo bot vs top, so there's nothing to gain by having bottom lane be solo.


Ofc, there is no benefit to solo bottom. That was not what i contested actually.

But i would still like to infer that with a good harrass and poking ability, there are not many champions that can even pick off creeps from under their tower in 2v1. Using lets say anivia, she can without sweat deny any lasthits under a tower using Q. I would say this holds true for an ashe/corki/caitlin also. Now with the emergence of Maokai and his grenadelike sapplings i would like to see someone being able to hold their own in a 2v1 lane. Or even the revamped ryze, he would without doubt be able to pull off a harrass under the tower.

Sure any champ can farm under a tower, BUT, against the 'wrong' combo they wont be able to get a single creep "for free" and thus be forced to back up several times, allowing the others to push the tower.
  • 0

#8 Berdine

Berdine

    Elite Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 232 posts

Posted 17 February 2011 - 03:13 PM

Doesnt even matter much on the combo sometimes. As a jungler, I witnessed an interesting tactic with our solo Nasus up top. The enemy team sat in the lane, keeping Nasus near/under his tower, and would harass him whenever they could. They did not last hit at all, nor hit the creeps, leaving the lane sitting in the middle. Nasus nor the enemy was getting gold, but the enemy was getting levels.

When I hit level 4 in jungle, Nasus was still level 1.

With Nasus hurt, theres no way I can gank the lane either. So my choice is, stop jungling and duo lane, or risk Nasus falling so behind and getting dived, that the match is 4 on 5.
  • 0

#9 Morbid Lynx

Morbid Lynx

    Elite Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 383 posts

Posted 17 February 2011 - 04:26 PM

interesting tactic. I faced that once as Urgot. I didn't even get to lvl 2 cause ryze and pantheon was huggning the brush and not pusing at all.

I think there are enough counters to jungling and too little benefit by employing it for it to be really viable.

This ofc only holds when only one of the teams jungle. If both teams jungle, the match is even.
  • 0

#10 MiMoDiE

MiMoDiE

    Devil

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 137 posts

Posted 17 February 2011 - 07:13 PM

well since solos are usually ppl who can handle a 1v2 that shouldn't be a problem. If not, then the jungler will need to care more about his solo top lane, simple! (assuming he is enough good to realise his solo lane is getting badly harrassed by a non handled 1v2 ) If the jungler doesnt care, then yes you might be fucked if you are soloing vs 2 as top kassadin... Junglers should be able to adapt themselves or don't even jungle ^^...

Somtimes it just happens that having or not a jungler doesnt really matter because
- you outplay your oponent
- the other jungle can't gank coz of the non pushed lanes or because he is bad or you have ungankable lanes.
- you got an extremly pushy team wish will destroy any solo/sidelanes.

BUT still (as i said in my previous post): having a jungler its the best comp in 95% of the time imo (referring to non brainless teammates and at a decent elo) because of the efficient gank potential and 2 overleveled overfarmed solo carries.
  • 0

Posted Image


#11 Berdine

Berdine

    Elite Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 232 posts

Posted 17 February 2011 - 10:16 PM

Hmmm, ok, so what champ at level 1 can fight 2 champs at the same time and get a kill without dying?

Im trying to think of the 2 worst possible champs against a strong champ, but theres no win that i can see. In this example, its Nasus top.
  • 0

#12 Morbid Lynx

Morbid Lynx

    Elite Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 383 posts

Posted 18 February 2011 - 09:31 AM

Junglers should be able to adapt themselves or don't even jungle ^^...


If this is the scenario. You will have an even weaker 2v2 lane, since one of the champs is specialized at jungling (w/ smite) and appropriate runes. The good he will do in the lane is diminished.

Although his jungling capabilities makes him able to take a jungleroute to bot lane, help push that faster than hell to give the team an edge. But alas, most ppl jungling i think gets stuck in PvE.

To clarify i am not opposed to jungling per se, but i belive about 1/10 junglers are actually competent and the team setup needs to be organized around the jungler for it to be efficient.
As a phenomena or team strat it is ok. But as you are presenting it as a standard that needs to be employed, i don't buy it.
With an adapted team comp, 1:3:1 is just as viable.
  • 0

#13 MiMoDiE

MiMoDiE

    Devil

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 137 posts

Posted 18 February 2011 - 04:11 PM

@ berdine:
Being able to deal a 1 vs 2 doesn't mean you are supposed to win your lane or get a kill...it means you are supposed to not fail/died and farm as you are supposed. That's all you need to do as a 1vs2 (and well if you can get a kill somehow then its like a unexpected dream ^^)

@ Morbid lynx:
Losing any type of lanes + tower early its way more a problem than having a weaker comp top lane.
2vs2 still > 2vs1 especially if your solo has trouble dealing with it. So the jungler will need to help there. Why?
Because, first of all even if he wasnt supposed to be laning, any char can lane easily (even ww, wrong runes or not ) and at least even if you can't get a kill, you can still lvl up (get xp/gold) and dont let your top lane died and get fucked (Obviusly "The good he will do in the lane is diminished" but just think of the pros and cons here...and you will understand my point)
Forthermore this jungler can easily go back to jungle at anytime (like when his lane is pushed or doing fine all alone)and so take/give to a teammate the oponent blue buff if hes purple side or the red buff if he's blue side and then get back to the lane and so using his jungle abilitie finally as an advantage.
Since the other team as no jungler why is it a prob to lvl up on lane? no worries about being underlvld from the other jungle, no sneaky jungler gank from each side, so who cares if you are in lane with smite or in jungle at this point? you can easily quit lane when its safe, take buff, give buffs, smite dragon, smite baron. The only difference here is that you didn't let a part of your team falling down which could cost you the game litteraly since the main purpose as i already said is to have 2 strong solo carries...not a fucked up top lane with underfarmed/underlvld solo and fed/farmed oponent.

I would also add that yes i trully think when you are jungling you should learn to adapt a lot than just hoping your teammates not being dumb or failing their lane, use your abilities in jungle to give an advantage at any point should be any jungler purpose in game. And so, considerring this scenario : the oponent jungle decided to destroy you in your jungle instead of focus on ganking other lanes (which is a strong strategy) then your adaptation will be "play safer yourself" and ask your teammates to help you back so you dont become useless.
  • 0

Posted Image


#14 Berdine

Berdine

    Elite Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 232 posts

Posted 18 February 2011 - 05:01 PM

[i]Being able to deal a 1 vs 2 doesn't mean you are supposed to win your lane or get a kill...it means you are supposed to not fail/died and farm as you are supposed. That's all you need to do as a 1vs2 (and well if you can get a kill somehow then its like a unexpected dream


Ok, but you are not reading what I have submitted. Lane starts,...minions meet in middle, enemy champs in bush (wish i could remember who they were, but one was a beefy ranged, other beefy melee). Solo Nasus walks up, gets pummelled on, retreats to tower with 100 hp left. I finish my jungle route, Nasus is now at over 200 hp, but level 1, and I am 4.

The enemy practically standing between the minions and our turret and not hitting them at all. Minions stay in middle. Nasus cannot move forward to farm. I cannot gank as WW, because Nasus is level 1 to our 3 and 4, and would just be risking my own life in doing so.

They were NOT last hitting even. No side was getting gold, but Nasus was being denied 100% XP and gold. This was the tactic i was talking about.
  • 0

#15 MiMoDiE

MiMoDiE

    Devil

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 137 posts

Posted 18 February 2011 - 05:59 PM

lol i read this post and i wasnt answering to this one but the last you posted aka "Hmmm, ok, so what champ at level 1 can fight 2 champs at the same time and get a kill without dying?"
I trully understood your nasus scenario and you might have good reasons not going to help him there so there isnt a prob here ^^ as far as your top tower isnt slowly dying from it. Only thing important in this case was that nasus didnt die or neither lost his tower. If he didnt whithout needed your help then its all good... being underlvl is not as a big deal as feed oponents or lose your tower imo
  • 0

Posted Image


#16 Thergood

Thergood

    Elite Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 350 posts

Posted 18 February 2011 - 06:13 PM

Also, don't forget that when "Nasus" or whoever walks up to the creeps line and gets attacked, his creeps will react and attack the enemy champs. This means they're not attacking the enemy creeps, this means the enemy creeps will push. They will also probably just push to an ideal spot just outside of tower range where Nasus can safely last hit with the protection of his tower.

Within just a couple waves Nasus will have out-leveled the enemy duo and should be able to do at least a little bit better. By this point the jungler should be aware of this and come for an early gank, like level 3. Mid could even push out and come for a gank. At the very least this should give Nasus some breathing room to further out level the duo. At best you end up with a kill or two.

The point is, it's almost impossible to create a permanent situation of creeps stuck in the dead center, friendly champ stuck at the tower, and enemy champs standing around in the bush. Basically, the other 4 members of the team would have to completely ignore what is happening and the duo top would literally have to do nothing except stay in the brush. Even if they grabbed creep aggro for a second or two the lane would push.
  • 0

#17 Berdine

Berdine

    Elite Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 232 posts

Posted 18 February 2011 - 08:06 PM

All i know, it was one of those rough games...mid was ezreal who was harassing our mid very well. Pre 6, WW cant do much, as he can flash out (plus had summoner flash and has wards out). Our mid wasnt the greatest either, so their help was out, they had their hands full staying alive and not losing the lane totally. And the top enemy was not bush sitting, they blatantly sat out in the lane and did not auto attack the creeps. Not remembering who the enemy was, I remember (as WW who is sturdy early), that i did not want to come in from behind, because I might not have made it to the short distance to the turret. Ganking was no go. At level 4, they tower dove the level 1 nasus, so i ended up having to stay in top lane for quite awhile, while bottom, in the end , accused me of not ganking their lane and costing us the match.

PS: Nasus did end up recovering,...once we lost top turret, he was able to farm top much better lol. All i know is, lvl 1 Nasus, after the initial beating he took could not afford to walk outside turret defense. The duo would rape him to nothing trying that, and even my lvl 4 ww, would have been dangerous to try. And i now remember, Sion and Urgot.
  • 0

#18 Thergood

Thergood

    Elite Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 350 posts

Posted 18 February 2011 - 08:25 PM

Well, Sion/Urgot, ouch. I don't know if there's a DUO lane that would be able to do much against those two. Haha.
  • 0

#19 Morbid Lynx

Morbid Lynx

    Elite Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 383 posts

Posted 21 February 2011 - 10:12 AM

I had some very interesting DUOs against SoloTops this weekend. Most ending in our DUO pushing the turret in aprox. 7minutes including a kill on the poor solo bastard. This was with shen and yi also(Qbashing ftw). After this the rest of the game became a gankathon, esp with me picking fortify with shen. Meaning we could easily roam and take our sweet time before heading back top to push up the lane.

But i guess this will change in due time as i realize my elo bracket is shit to nothing right now.
  • 0

#20 Berdine

Berdine

    Elite Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 232 posts

Posted 21 February 2011 - 10:30 PM

Cant remember my record, but i was Zilean, partnered with Caitlynn against Soraka and Eve. Tower dropped before first blood. Was great!
  • 0