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Ryze Counter Picks
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2 months ago
Hey, the idea that Ryze soft-counters like Lux are played a lot more is a really good point that I hadn't thought about. Lux is something like 2x as popular as she used to be. She's in 29% of games according to LoLKing! You should add that to the thread for an interesting discussion on meta shifts!
Wanderer is weak/cost using Boots of Mobility as a reference item. Ryze needs the MS more than most champs but you're not out of combat enough. I think but haven't tested, that out of combat requires 5 seconds. Ryze isn't really a ganking machine with how farm dependent he is. A jungler or high roamer like Ahri would find this much more useful.
Ryze mostly benefits from it in the mid-late game at which point you can just get Alacrity. Plus, Wanderer actually hurts the cost-efficiency of Alacrity or Furor (which is probably not that great anyhow outside of teamfights) because there's a MS soft-cap @ 415 and anything above that has a 20% penalty. On the other hand, using Faerie Charm for reference, Meditation is quite cost-efficient @ 60 gold/point when the average is ~35 and Ryze is pretty mana hungry until mid-game. You also can't count on Blue 100% but want to charge that ToG asap.
The pros for Wanderer are that MS is an important (esp. for Ryze) but hard to come by resource and remains relevant all game. The extra 7 MS can help you poke a bit better in laning and save some time when walking around. However, Meditation helps too because you'll have more mana for harass and even if you do get to poke more with Wanderer, you're a bit too short ranged to do it without taking damage from them right after. Moreover, most mids don't get Nimble and MS quints so you'll probably be faster either way. I haven't fully evaulated the relevance of extra poking in lane but my impression is that it isn't more useful than having a couple more Qs at your disposal. The only way to justify Wanderer is to say that the MS gained is somehow way undervalued on Boots of Mobility's passive or that mana regen is way overpriced on Faerie Charm.
I would always take at least the first Expanded Mind point for 72 extra mana @ 18. The synergy between Ryze's mana scalings and Seraph's/Muramana's passives are too good to pass up even if this is very late game oriented. I'd rather remove a point from Strength of Spirit for sure. The regen you get from it isn't that high until late game and by that point HP regen is unimportant. It also says "up to x / 400" so it makes me concerned that it doesn't give the flat amount it claims. I haven't tested it though.
I've toyed around with pickpocket and it doesn't fit my style. Ryze's early game isn't great and he's actually pretty squishy so I try to play passive and safe. Pickpocket encourages more aggressive play but I usually get punished by taking extra damage when using it. That extra damage is more costly than the 3 gold I gain and if I were playing normally, I rarely use Ryze's slow basic attacks in lane. Pickpocket is better for early game bullies like Annie or champs that can take a lot of punishment like Galio (although most wouldn't go in Utility). I don't particularly like it but it's probably not horirble.
Thanks for the tips on combos!
2 months ago
Thanks for asking my opinion :)
Sorry that I didnt come up with some calculations yet, they are a bit harder than I expected and I'm really busy with school atm..
But what I got from practical experience is:
QEQWQRQEQWQ-QEQWQ-QEQWQ Etc is gives the most damage over time ( tested this on baron, which is a non moving thing, so when you're facing a champion you might switch the order of E and W )
The most damage in the shortest amount of time is: QEWQ
But in my opinion this combo is only good during the laning phase, since you will do more damage in a teamfight if you use the 1st combo.
I agree that meditation is a bit weak.. I might switch them from meditation to wanderer. I'm also thinking about switching expanded mind for something else. You gain 8 damage from it at lvl 18, that isn't that much. What do you think about pickpocket btw?
Also I think the reasons people mentioned in that thread are quite good:
- He has 0 pushpower early game, even with his ult.
- At lower elo, games usually don't last longer than 20 minutes. Ryze shines the most in late mid/ late game.
- he's only 450 IP so a lot of newer players buy him and can't play well with him
- And my guess is: Atm long range/herras champs like Lux are played alot, Ryze doesn't perform well against them.
Hope I helped you :)
2 months ago
What do you think is the reason for Ryze's slightly lower winrate compared to other respected mids? See here:
2 months ago
Cool man, looking forward to your results. Meanwhile, I found a sweet article on Improved Recall vs Wanderer. It's fairly detailed and shows strongly that in time saved, IR is far better. Yes, you will miss some chances to escape or get that last auto in for a kill but IR can save your life too at times. For example, if you recall exactly when Karthus dies, he won't have time to kill your with Requirem. It seems almost all Ryze guides love 3/3 in Wanderer and it's true that it gets stronger relative to the MS of other champs as you max it out but it's still debatable.
On the other hand, Meditation isn't that impressive either. In 10 minutes, all you'd get is 6 more Qs. Moreover, this would only be true if you were to wait till you were out of mana, didn't have blue buff, didn't recall etc. so in practice it's maybe 3-5. And it can be even less since in some games you have to recall to get Tear or because you have little health and not because you're out of mana.
One mastery that I do like is 3/3 in Strength of Spirit. While it got nerfed, it still offers some nice health regen in the endgame.
2 months ago
You're very welcome lolbot! Thank you for thinking with me too! ;P
Hmm I'm not sure either. If you want to escape/ catch up with an enemy you are probably in combat, so you won't get the wanderer bonus. Also, you can always use your ult to get that bit extra movementspeed. Also I really like haveing 3 points in Masterminde go get your flash back up faster (better escape / catch up than that extra bit movementspeed)
Meditation really helps early game indeed. When I put 1 point from wanderer into improved recal, the time you lost with walking back to midlane is covered. Pickpocket might help a alot too. In a 30 min match you could get 1080 gold maximum from it. Ofcourse you will never get the maximum amount, but even if you get half of it it's still alot (you can pay the Alacrity upgrade with it for example)
I think this offers more than the 2% movementspeed (which you don't have when in combat). So during the laningphase those 3 points aren't helping at all.
So I agree with you, if it was a flat 2% it would be better, but in this case I think Improved recal, Pickpocket and 1 point more in Meditation is better.
I'm buisy with some calculations on the combo's, but I dont have that much time at the moment. I'll post it asap ! :)
2 months ago
Meditation seems to help me charge up my tear so I still don't know for sure what I like best. Both of these masteries have clear drawbacks. If Wanderer was a flat 2% it would absolutely be the best choice though.
2 months ago
BTW, with 3 MS Quints, Wanderer, Sorcerer's shoes, Ryze has a 416 MS OC (409 IC), just above the softcap of 415. It's quite a bit faster than champs that don't go Boots of Swiftness and can be an advantage later in the game because it's harder to get MS in S3. Thus, I'm starting to like Wanderer more because while it's not a big difference, it can often be just enough to avoid a big gank or catch some fleeing enemy. If we consider Alacrity offers +15 ms for 475 and we get 7 mixed ms, 3 points are probably worth a minimum of 180 gold. 180 gold is the value of 3 points in meditation since that's a Faerie Charm.
Plus, Wanderer remains useful in the endgame while the mana regen is only useful before you get RoA. Still, I think Wanderer is only worth it if you went for 3 MS Quints because then you are actually able to outrun most champs but with only 2., you're still not there yet. Especially given the fact that Ryze has a short range, I think I now favor Wanderer slightly over mana regen. But, you could also go 3 points in Wanderer, 3 in Mediation and only 1 in Mastermind. After all, more than 1 point loses 1% per point. Thoughts?
2 months ago
Thank you very much for the detailed response! These are VERY helpful.
Also, I saw this in the official forums
"Everyone seems to argue that his rotation is QWQEQ, QWQEQ, etc.
Calculate his cooldowns with his passive; you'll find that his rotation is QWEQRQ, QWEQ-Q, QWEQ-Q. That’s the order where he can get off the most damage over the least amount of time."
I've tried to test it in a few games but have a hard time registering the minuscule differences. Although, I feel like the last Q has a longer delay. His claim is different from every Ryze guide I've seen so I'm curious.
2 months ago
Thanks for the feedback!
Answer to question 1:
I find the first question kind of hard to answer. You can ask yourself what your goal is when using a combo. For just herras damage, QEWQ is indeed better, due to the MR reducement. However since the range of W is a bit shorter than your E, it might be harder to hit the full combo (you stand still casting your abilities, so when you hit your Q, the enemy can run away).
Also if you use QEWQ istead of a QEQ (for herras) you have no defense if the enemy jungler ganks (no W ). So the question is if you want to risk not having your W or do a bit more herras.
When your jungler ganks however, I think it's better to do QW-AA-QE-AA-Q
When you hit your Q->W, the jungler can follow up with his CC or hit his skillshot (lee sin). When the enemy is snared you can hit an autoattack while walking towards him, hit another Q and then E Q again. This will do the most damage. I might do some calculations for this, i'm also interested how much more damage it wil do, but I haven't got time for that at the moment.
For teamfights however, most of the time you will snare someone who's out of position. If your team gets caught though, you're right I think. It's better to use your E early to apply the MR debuff. I will change this in my guide, thanks!
The debuff from E lasts 5 seconds btw.
Answer to question 2:
I did the same thing as you did. I got 410 movementspeed with wanderer and 403 without. So that's a 7 movementspeed difference.
I checked a few times how long it took to reach mid lane ( starting at the nexus ) with "Wanderer" and without.
With wanderer: an average of 20,8 sec
Without wanderer: an average of 21.2 sec
So this is only 0.4 sec difference.
That's not really worth it indeed. I suggest you to take improved recal, which improves your recal time by 0.5 sec. So that alone makes up for the time you lose by not taking wanderer ( to get back in lane). However when you're ganking bot lane you will be about 0.4 sec slower..
I would put the other 2 points you still have in "meditation" and "pickpocket"
Hope I answered your questions enough :)
Thanks again for the feedback!
Let me know if you got some great scores with Ryze :D!
2 months ago
Hi and thanks for the excellent guide. I have a few questions.
1. If I do the QWEQ combo instead of QEWQ does it make any difference in damage at various CDR levels or is it all applied instantly? Also, how long would the mr debuff from E actually last? My same concern is for the ultimate combo of QRWQEQ. Wouldn't QREQWQ be better in a teamfight due to the debuff from E?
2. Is wanderer really worth 3 points? I tested it in game and with Sorcercer's shoes & Alacrity, I was getting 429 move-speed out of combat & 423 in combat. 3 points for 6 movement speed that isn't even always there seems wasteful.
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